Curse

Lishy · Jun 28, 2009, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Lately I've been making considering making a necromancer (Though most of its armor discourages me from doing so) BUT I'd like to get some info on Human MMs, both for necromancers and ritualists.

Can someone answer my questions on this?

1. Why is it people say heroes are better MMs?

2. Are humans still inferior even if they have the micro skills to cast all the necessary bomb enchants on all the different kinds of MMs?

3. Running a necro will allow me to stray away from the trouble necro machine. Would a hero ritualists be any viable? Or is it crap

4. Speaking of ritualists, is ritualist human MMs any good now that ritualists are able to handle their energy?

5. What're the best or notable MM-related skills? This can include ritualist skills as well, even spawning power.

6. Whatever happened to Flesh Golem? Why is it underused now?

7. How is Jagged Bones any good? I've seen it used a lot, but its recharge makes it look like crap..

8. Why is it looked down upon when you use a pet alongside being a MM?

9. Superior Death Magic Vs. Major Death Magic

10. Bone Fiends use to be really used. Now they're not. What happened

11. Offtopic, but which Necro armor looks the least sinister? As in, a casual, fancy look, but nothing too spiky or that doesn't stand out?

12. Can I see some good human MM builds?

13. What're the uses of each notable secondary for a necro to help with human mming?

14. What're some notable PvE skills?

15. If I'm an MM, and I have 2 of the sabways, what's a good 4th hero to synergyze?

16. Aside from creating minions, what offensive capabilities does an MM have?

17. I'm often hearing about discord MMs. How do they work as a human?

18. Lastly, are human MMs even worth it in the end?

IronSheik · Jun 28, 2009, 05:32 AM // 05:32

1. Why is it people say heroes are better MMs?
They can micro Death Nova, and since minions die insanely fast in HM, it ends up giving more damage than minions themselves most of the time

2. Are humans still inferior even if they have the micro skills to cast all the necessary bomb enchants on all the different kinds of MMs?
No, because then they're a super hero.

3. Running a necro will allow me to stray away from the trouble necro machine. Would a hero ritualists be any viable? Or is it crap
I'm assuming rit AoTl bomber thing...it's decent, I prefer my Necro prot though.

4. Speaking of ritualists, is ritualist human MMs any good now that ritualists are able to handle their energy?
Better than Heroes.

5. What're the best or notable MM-related skills? This can include ritualist skills as well, even spawning power.
Jagged bones, Order of undeath, Flesh Golem if you are pro DoAer...Not so MM related but Empathetic Removal and Discord are good choices.

6. Whatever happened to Flesh Golem? Why is it underused now?
Sabway came out and people left MMing to heroes, and it isn't the best human elite.

7. How is Jagged Bones any good? I've seen it used a lot, but its recharge makes it look like crap..
It spawns an additional minion upon death, which is nice if using shambling horrors (two jaggeds) Recharge isn't so bad, considering a lot of minion skills are 15+

8. Why is it looked down upon when you use a pet alongside being a MM?
Because you have minions to tank and do damage...not pets, better things you can do with 2 skills

9. Superior Death Magic Vs. Major Death Magic
Human=Super Hero=Any Minor/Major/Super Depending on preference

10. Bone Fiends use to be really used. Now they're not. What
They bunch up too nicely for AoE...best used bu humans

11. Offtopic, but which Necro armor looks the least sinister? As in, a casual, fancy look, but nothing too spiky or that doesn't stand out?
Regular Kurzick

12. Can I see some good human MM builds?
I'm a horrible MM, but this is what I run, Only first 4 are staples...rest I just throw on randomly
OABCUsxESFVQJjCYu4NJcZVF
OANDUshvSyBTBKg5i2i1DBEVVA

13. What're the uses of each notable secondary for a necro to help with human mming?
Monk - Aegis/PS/SoA/Convert Heal - Dwayna's Sorrow/Assorted Heals, Dwaynas on a group of minions is a nice party heal
Nothing else too major for secondaries besides some heals on rits end/Splinter weapon.

14. What're some notable PvE skills?
Ebon Ward of Honor, Giant buff to fiends with OoU, Don't know what else, rarely MM

15. If I'm an MM, and I have 2 of the sabways, what's a good 4th hero to synergyze?
If I MM with sabway I usually bring a discord Healer with Death Nova. Then only bring one Monk Hench

16. Aside from creating minions, what offensive capabilities does an MM have?
Putrid Bile Mostly. Rotting Flesh for some degen, Nothing too major that's good.

17. I'm often hearing about discord MMs. How do they work as a human?
Well...you bring discord on an MM bar, not usually the best since you'd have to have a caller to be able to know what's hex/enchanted/conditioned, Not recommended

18. Lastly, are human MMs even worth it in the end?
Yes. It's a nice change from the N/A Mark of pain nuker.

Helix Dreadlock · Jun 28, 2009, 05:36 AM // 05:36

#11 is the necrotic armor in grotto. it's badass.
#13 try ele or monk, for dwayna's sorrow or gole.
#16 Nothing really. it' ment for damage sponging/mobs, ect.
#17 heros know better how long the duration of hexes/conds last and can use more effectively.
#18 not really. Curses on the other hand, are the best a necro can have. It's a whole new way to farm, ect. and can deal some mean damage. almost a must in doa, ect.
#10 they cost too much energy and dont live so long, whereas the 2-summor minions can create more in 1 spell, leaving the build with more choices.
#8 because it's better to be n/e or n/mo to be a mm, not n/r
#4 i've never seen them used, really
#1 because you can run pve skills and curses, ect. while they know the corspes in the area, and how many they can control at once
#5 aegis, dwaynas sorrow, gole, animate bone minions, death nova, feast for the dead, jagged bones, taste of death.
#9 major. The extra health loss sucks if using skills like blood of the master (use lightly, you could easily die if spammed).
#7 it creates an extra minion that causes bleeding when the previous one dies, and still causes death nova, therefore served it's purpose, and creates a backup sponge. it's also better because you can enchant more than one minion and flesh golem cant, plus, it's only a 5e skill.
#2 nothing can beat npc timing. Leave hex removal, timing, ect to them.

P.S. ask any more questions you want. Sorry the answers aren't in order :P

IronSheik · Jun 28, 2009, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helix Dreadlock

#1 because you can run pve skills and curses, ect. while they know the corspes in the area, and how many they can control at once

Sorry, this made me Lol, A human doesn't know how many minions they can control at once? Or count how many enemies are in a group?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helix Dreadlock

#9 major. The extra health loss sucks if using skills like blood of the master (use lightly, you could easily die if spammed).

Also this, super vs. Major death rune is same number of BoTm Casts
It's total health sacrifice. Lower health=Lower health sacrifice. Higher health=Higher sacrificed
20Hp at %5 a cast is 20 casts before death
400 Hp at 5% a cast is 20 casts before death

snaek · Jun 28, 2009, 07:12 AM // 07:12

1. because the ai caters to a certain mm playstyle. see corpse->cast minion spell, see someone dying->cast death nova, etc, etc.

2. no. death nova spam isn't everything.

3. run whatever heroes you want. mm goes well with nearly any team configuration, gimmicks aside.

4. sure, but not better than a necro primary mm.

5. depends, but generally [blood of the master] is up there.

6. [flesh golem] was mostly popular due to it being the first true mm elite in gw. its not bad imo, but due to further powercreep there are now better options.

7. its mostly only good for areas with few corpses, or for dual or triple mm'ing.

8. pets look bad alongside nearly any build. but specifically with mm because they no longer leave exploitable corpses.

9. depends on build but generally sup.

10. soul reaping nerf and hardmode...but mostly soul reaping nerf.

11. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Necromancer_armor ; decide yourself.

12. http://www.pvxwiki.com ; go crazy.

13. /e for energy; /mo for heal/prot; /rt for heal; /me for aotl spam; /d for botm spam; /p for ims spam; /a for ap recharge.

14. you really can't go wrong when it comes to pve skills, however [mindbender] is a personal fave.

15. dual-mm can work in certain areas, otherwise any of the standard meta builds work fine.

16. via pve skills and support skills mostly, [putrid bile] if you must.

17. [necrosis] > [discord].

18. only if you enjoy playing one.

Helix Dreadlock · Jun 28, 2009, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Sorry, this made me Lol, A human doesn't know how many minions they can control at once? Or count how many enemies are in a group?

Also this, super vs. Major death rune is same number of BoTm Casts
It's total health sacrifice. Lower health=Lower health sacrifice. Higher health=Higher sacrificed
20Hp at %5 a cast is 20 casts before death
400 Hp at 5% a cast is 20 casts before death

No, because most humans don't take the time to cast accordingly, or don't know wich are exploited and wich aren't. Oh, and that major vs. sup question, it's still Major, because the extra health could benefit in a number of ways.

Hatchet Child · Jun 28, 2009, 07:54 PM // 19:54

If this is PvE we are talking about sup runes are better your not gonna get 1-2-3 spiked by anything.

Shadowmere · Jun 28, 2009, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

1. Why is it people say heroes are better MMs?

I wouldn't say heroes are better Minion Masters, they beat any human when it comes to Minion Bombing (which is a different approach to using minions and why I don't classify them as one). And again the reason they're better in this role is that they can actively target low health minions and apply death nova much more quickly and precisely than a human could hope to match. That being said heroes don't use actual Minion Master builds very intelligently.

Quote:

2. Are humans still inferior even if they have the micro skills to cast all the necessary bomb enchants on all the different kinds of MMs?

Short answer; Yes. With the current interface there is no way you can match the speed and efficiency of a hero's minion targeting. So really it's best to leave bomber builds to them.

Quote:

3. Running a necro will allow me to stray away from the trouble necro machine. Would a hero ritualists be any viable? Or is it crap

I've not tried Rit MB heroes myself but, speaking of just the build it's a tradeoff, with a N/x MB Hero you have a lot of freedon to bring support skills on it as well, but with Rt/N you're already forced into a rather hefty split between 2 attribute lines (death magic and spawning power) neither of which offer much in the way of utilit/support for a team. The damage potential is greater but the utility of the hero is more or less nullified.

Quote:

4. Speaking of ritualists, is ritualist human MMs any good now that ritualists are able to handle their energy?

I don't believe much has changed in respect to Rt/N Minion Bombing, they still must rely on spawning power enchantments and other skills for energy management so they are by default going to be less flexible than a straight N/x would.

Quote:

5. What're the best or notable MM-related skills? This can include ritualist skills as well, even spawning power.

The main MM elites are:
Order of Undeath ~ I'd say this is the best elite for a Human MM, heroes simply don't use it intelligently, and used correctly it'll make your minion army a real driving force on the battlefield instead of just cannon fodder.
Aura of the Lich ~ This one is perhaps best for "generic" MM builds and to some extent MB builds. I've found it's best use is in bar compression, reducing the "MM" portion of a bar down a slot or two and allowing for secondary skills to compliment or provide more utility.

Some utility and secondary skills to look into include:
Dark Bond Is a rather handy in builds focusing on "minion wall" ideas, as it redirects damage where you are intending it to go in the first place.
Explosive Growth and Spirit's Gift are useful for Rt/N and the main reason why Rt/N are used at all.
Dwayna's Sorrow is very useful in bomber builds as well
Heal Area and Healing Ring can be useful for minion healing between battles
Barbs, Mark of Pain, and to some extent Winnowing can be used to boost your minion's damage (however it's usually best to have a second character bring these).

Quote:

6. Whatever happened to Flesh Golem? Why is it underused now?

The Flesh Golem simply doesn't have much going for it, it has some use in bomber style builds due to it's leaving a corpse but even there it isn't stellar. Simply put the fleshie is the odd man out of MM elites, it doesn't have a clear purpose and while being "decent" all around it doesn't offer much synergy to any MM or MB builds.

Quote:

7. How is Jagged Bones any good? I've seen it used a lot, but its recharge makes it look like crap..

Indeed, Jagged Bones seems like a great bomber elite at first glance but it's recharge means it's more or less useless in the role where it needs to be applied to many minions in a short period of time. Despite having a clear purpose unlike the Flesh Golem it simply isn't very good in it's role. But it is still useful if you simply can't think of another elite to use for a bomber style build.

Quote:

8. Why is it looked down upon when you use a pet alongside being a MM?

For several reasons, mainly being that bringing a pet requires at a bare minimum 2 skill slots (assuming you want your pet to be able to stay with you and not just have it suicide in the first fight). and it just goes up from there. It gets very tricky to balance both sides of the build and keep it coherent. There's also the fact that very few pet skills benefit a MM and vice versa. One possible solution is to use AotL as your elite, this will allow you to quicky get a full army up without undue time and skills.

Quote:

9. Superior Death Magic Vs. Major Death Magic

Superior, hands down. The thing to remember is that your rank in death magic doesn't just determine the damage you do with spells and such it determines both the size and strength of your minion army, more death magic the better. And difference between 15 and 16 death magic is both an additional level for your minions but also a higher minion cap. so you could have slightly higher hp and have 9 lower level minions or lower hp and 10 higher level minions.

Additionally the lower health will work with you when saccing with BotM. It dosen't change the amount of times you can sac without killing yourself but it does make it that much easier to heal your sacrifices with lower health.

Quote:

10. Bone Fiends use to be really used. Now they're not. What happened

I'm not aware that anything happened, Fiends have and will likely always be the damage dealing MM's best friend. Ranged attack and higher attack speed is not something to be overlooked. OoU MM's in particular swear by them.

Quote:

11. Offtopic, but which Necro armor looks the least sinister? As in, a casual, fancy look, but nothing too spiky or that doesn't stand out?

I'm partial to the Fanatic/Cultist set myself, Kurzick (both reg and elite) is quite nice as well. But again only you can tell what you like.

Quote:

12. Can I see some good human MM builds?

I won't say how great these are but here are the codes of the varites i've used over the years.
This one is the MM I used when I first made my necro before the release of NF; OANDUspNOAtSGVAP4OBJVVAA
This is a variety of OoU MM i've used, can be rather hectic to run due to needing careful e-management but will kick it wonderfully; OApkQIFshuiUVVJDVASFeA71WoiA
Here's a slightly revised one I haven't tested extensively; OABCUsxUVVJDVASVuIegWIcJ
And here's one I've grown rather fond of, Uses AotL for bar compression and curses for damage boosts: OABDUshnSVVlMyB7iWClB4BwlA

Quote:

13. What're the uses of each notable secondary for a necro to help with human mming?

Monk: Mainly used for skills that assist with minion healing but can be used for more team utility on heroes
Ritualist: very limited use but some skills such as Life can be useful for minion healing
Paragon: several shouts that affect allies will effect minions, namely "Fall Back!" and "Go For The Eyes!"

Quote:

14. What're some notable PvE skills?

Ebon Battle Standard of Honor can be placed on a group of attacking bone fiends to greatly increase their damage.
Air of Superiority Can be useful due to it's ability to recharge your skills, can make a semi-decent counter to long recharge skills like AotL
Mindbender is also very useful for speeding up your minion creation

Quote:

15. If I'm an MM, and I have 2 of the sabways, what's a good 4th hero to synergyze?

A paragon isn't a bad choice, using the shouts I mentioned it could benefit your minions as much as your team. Otherwise, pretty much anything that can synergize with minions

Quote:

16. Aside from creating minions, what offensive capabilities does an MM have?

very little actually, most MM's require the team to make the first few kills and after that the army eases things more and more until you can steamroll most foes. however Necrosis is great if you want some direct damage to help out for the first few kills.

Quote:

17. I'm often hearing about discord MMs. How do they work as a human?

it works decent, however you can use necrosis and save your elite slot with practically the same effect.

Quote:

18. Lastly, are human MMs even worth it in the end?

Yes, heroes cannot fill the role of a true MM (that is using minions to deal damage through their attacks not deaths).

Chthon · Jun 28, 2009, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

1. Why is it people say heroes are better MMs?

a. Damage output. EBSoH and OoU are the key damage skills, and one's a PvE skill and the other's something the AI screws up.
b. Positioning. The AI is rarely going to get the minions in right place at the right time.
c. BotM usage. The AI doesn't "understand" that minions are degenerating, so its BotM pattern is bad. You tend to see lots of risky saccing when the minions get very low on hp that could have been avoided with intelligent saccing apace with degen.
d. Corpse and energy management. The AI doesn't have a goal for its army composition. It pounds summons randomly even if that leaves it without the corpses or the energy to get and maintain an ideal army.

Quote:

2. Are humans still inferior even if they have the micro skills to cast all the necessary bomb enchants on all the different kinds of MMs?

a. No human I've ever seen has that level of micro skills.
b. Death Nova is relatively weak compared to EBSoH+OoU. You run it on heroes because they *can't* run anything better, not because it's strong.

Quote:

3. Running a necro will allow me to stray away from the trouble necro machine.

wth?

Quote:

Would a hero ritualists be any viable? Or is it crap

Do you mean a hero rit to support your human MM? That can work. See the thread on arkfenway.

If you mean a hero rit as a MM, then it's crap. They used to be crap even as a MB, but I haven't really reaxamined them since the latest round of buffs.

Quote:

4. Speaking of ritualists, is ritualist human MMs any good now that ritualists are able to handle their energy?

Nope, they're crap.

Quote:

5. What're the best or notable MM-related skills? This can include ritualist skills as well, even spawning power.

Here's your bar:
1. BotM
2. Bone fiend
3. Melee minion
4. OoU
5. EBSoH
6. Heal Area
7. Masochism or SoLS
8. Free
There's not a lot of room for variation.

Quote:

6. Whatever happened to Flesh Golem? Why is it underused now?

It does far less damage than OoU. It used to be less of a tank than regular horrors supported by BotM spam supported by AotL. Now that AtoL's changed, maybe it can reclaim its tank role,.. but I'm not sure if that role is worth anything...

Quote:

7. How is Jagged Bones any good? I've seen it used a lot, but its recharge makes it look like crap.

It's a solid option for hero minion bombers since it produces a cheap minion without needing a corpse. It also helps with keeping the army standing longer if you don't want to trust the AI with BotM. It's of no use to a human.

Quote:

8. Why is it looked down upon when you use a pet alongside being a MM?

Because pets require two skillslots you can't afford plus a bunch of attributes you can't afford to give you nothing more than what a minion gives you.

Quote:

9. Superior Death Magic Vs. Major Death Magic

Superior. 10 minions instead of 9, more armor, more life, more damage. No brainer.

Quote:

10. Bone Fiends use to be really used. Now they're not. What happened

I suspect you're being confused by player MM builds and hero MB builds. MM's use their minions for damage, so they care about using powerful minions. MB's routinely blow up and replace their minions, so they care about using cheap minions.

Any human MM build that lacks fiends is probably crap.

Quote:

11. Offtopic, but which Necro armor looks the least sinister? As in, a casual, fancy look, but nothing too spiky or that doesn't stand out?

personal preference.

Quote:

12. Can I see some good human MM builds?

All good human MM bars will be some variant on my response to question 5. Attributes are 12+1+3 Death, 10+1 SR, and 8 Healing. If you have supreme confidence in your team's ability to mitigate damage, 10+3 SR reaches a significant breakpoint.

Quote:

13. What're the uses of each notable secondary for a necro to help with human mming?

Heal Area is requires to offset your sacrifice costs. Mystic Regeneration used to be another option before it got nerfed.

Quote:

14. What're some notable PvE skills?

EBSoH.

Quote:

15. If I'm an MM, and I have 2 of the sabways, what's a good 4th hero to synergyze?

I neither know nor care.

Quote:

16. Aside from creating minions, what offensive capabilities does an MM have?

Since it's armor-sensitive, minions' direct damage is basically trivial. The real damage from a MM comes from armor-ignoring buffs that can trigger off the minions' attacks -- OoU, EBSoH, Barbs, MoP.

Quote:

17. I'm often hearing about discord MMs. How do they work as a human?

They don't. First, let me make perfectly clear that Discord builds are utterly mediocre. Second, Necrosis is strictly superior to Discord for player characters.

Quote:

18. Lastly, are human MMs even worth it in the end?

Depends what you mean by the question.
If you're asking "are they superior to heroes by enough to make it worth doing?" then the answer is yes.
If you're asking "are they strong enough to deserve a place in my team?" then the answer is yes.
If you're asking "is this the best I can do with the only human necro in the team?" the answer is probably not. While a human MM is a large step up from a hero MB, a human curser is an even bigger step up from a hero curser.

Improvavel · Jun 29, 2009, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

They don't. First, let me make perfectly clear that Discord builds are utterly mediocre for HUMANS and HUMAN PARTIES. Second, Necrosis is strictly superior to Discord for player characters.

There.

Heroes running minions are bombers. Their elite options aren't that great anyway, so having a backup direct armor ignoring damage skill is far from being mediocre, DPS or no DPS. Once the 115 damage of the hero MB discord kills (or help killing) the target (which will be around 1/6th of the health of a mob around lvl26-28) I don't care if the hero has no DPS because he is getting 2 minions out of the fresh dead ex-enemy.

Chthon · Jun 29, 2009, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Lets not turn this into a "Discord versus good builds" thread. We've had two of those already, and that's more than enough.

Xenomortis · Jun 29, 2009, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. BotM
2. Bone fiend
3. Melee minion
4. OoU
5. EBSoH
6. Heal Area
7. Masochism or SoLS
8. Free
There's not a lot of room for variation.

Screw Heal Area. Take Foul Feast and Infuse condition, that way you provide a second support option and don't need to spec out of Soul Reaping.
Masochism isn't as useful as it was with OoU, so I generally don't bother with that either.
Avoid self-heal options unless your monks are utterly useless (in which case, you should replace them).
I wouldn't recommend H/Hing as a MM, but feel free. If you are, then I will forgive you for taking a self heal (but only one).

If you are the lone Necromancer in a team, I would not recommend you run a MM. It is a role that a hero can achieve with reasonable success (MBs) and I would instead run a curses build.
With two necros, one of them can run a much more effective MM build than a hero. A human MM is then worth it.

With regards to runes, take a Superior, even on heroes.
Crucially, 16 Death Magic gives you 10 minions. It also gives you another point of damage from OoU, more health for minions and more armour.

The extra health loss means you'll take less damage from the BotM sac so it can more easily be healed.
It potentially means you'll take less damage from OoU, however this may only be a point of damage depending on how it gets rounded. With less health, you may find yourself taking more relative damage from OoU due to rounding.

With regard to Ritualists:
Rt/N MMs are inferior in almost every way. Due to the recent buff, a bone horror summoned at 12 DM and 12 Spawning will have more health than one summoned at 16 DM. However, it will have less armour and do less damage.
A Rit's Death Nova is weaker.
A Rit is dependant on Boon of Creation to just make the build viable. The only significant energy return with this is when it is used with Aura of the Lich. Bone Minions may give two triggers of BoC, but it is still inferior to Soul Reaping.
A Rit cannot run OoU.
A Rit is locked into Rt/N and into two lines with little support. The Necro can instead, run N/Mo (for Empathic, SoR or something else), N/P (there are some nice shouts), etc.
A Rit can only have 8 minions compared to the Necromancer's 10.

Crucially, the Ritualist can only have 8 lower levelled minions that do less damage and have less armour (but higher health) while the Necromancer can have 10 minions with more armour and do more damage (with a little less health).
It's not as though the health difference is that big either. The health difference between a dire pet and a hearty pet is bigger and the damage tradeoff is about the same (if not smaller).

AngeliqueSynner · Jun 29, 2009, 12:12 PM // 12:12

I don't have the expertise to help you on which tye of MM to go for, but in regards to armor, go with a female necro and get Vabbian armor. :] Is snazzy. :]